winterene ([info]winterene) wrote,
@ 2009-08-25 10:12:00
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Misogyny or Justified?
Sometimes, like right now, I hate attractive women.

Is this misogyny, or is this justified?

The Wikipedia entry for misogyny gives several definitions, but it makes no mention of hatred of women, or more specifically, a subset of women, caused by actions that they have taken against the person.

Through no fault of my own, because of simple genetics, I, like countless other men, have been cursed with a subaverage, perhaps even foul, physical appearance. The immediate effect of this is to have lived a life in which attractive girls and women simply have no interest in me. Unless in a social situation where a greeting is customer, these women simply do not acknowledge my presence. I do not even get a simple "hello" from attractive women when out in public.

Because of this, I sometimes hate them, and I have to wonder if this is a justified hatred and not in fact misogyny. I do not hate them because they are women. I hate them because I have been, through circumstance, forced to live among this group of people who regard me as a nonentity.

Before you answer, think about this--if a person lives his whole life being harrassed and abused by police, is he justified in hating police?

Or, to give a closer analogy, if a person grows up poor but amidst the wealthy and finds himself constantly ignored, treated as if he did not exist, is he justified in developing a hatred for the rich?

What about the homeless? They are routinely ignored by other members of society. However, I've heard it reported many times that many homeless choose that lifestyle willingly for a variety of reasons. From that perspective, I would argue that if a person chooses not to bathe for long periods of time and chooses to ask for money without offering any contribution in return, then that person is causing himself to be ignored.

But subaverage or just plain ugly people are not necessarily in the same category, are they? Not unless you accept that a person like me should expend all resources possible to improve his looks. If that is the premise, then I am to blame, because I have neglected to undergo skin treatments, teeth straightening and whitening, a rigorous exercise regimen to acquire a more athletic body, hair treatments, and a change in wardrobe. So technically, I could take time away from things that genuinely improve my mind, my knowledge of the world, my personal development and use that time to maintain an appearance that might put me on radar screens of attractive women, even though doing so would probably leave me feeling like I was not doing anything worthwhile.

From that perspective, am I myself to blame for being a nonperson in the eyes of attractive women, and thus unjustified in hating them?

I just don't know.



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harsh.
[info]devils_tool
2009-08-25 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Wow.

Uh. Partially justified?

I don't know. Not knowing you personally, I can't answer that without seeing you interacting with other people. As a (straight) guy, I don't see that you're unattractive looking from your pictures, so to me, that's a non-issue.

I'm going to take a stab at this - with some generalization - since I don't actually know you.

When you're saying that an attractive woman doesn't say, "Hello" - is that after you've said "Hello" first? Or are you expecting that she will say "Hello" first?

Attractive people have people from ALL walks of life attempting to start conversations ALL DAY LONG. Put yourself in the shoes of a gorgeous woman. She starts her day - goes to Starbucks, has a guy and a barista flirting with her. She goes to work, her boss and one of her co-workers are flirting with her. She gets off work, goes out for dinner, and the waiter is flirting with her. Also, a gentleman buys her a drink - in order to flirt with her. She goes home, her next door neighbor comes over to borrow sugar - and HE's flirting with her. This is just ONE day. All these guys want SOMETHING. You just have to try to be the guy that doesn't want ANYTHING from them.

It's a lopsided world, but if you want to start a conversation with an attractive person, you have to show (intellectually) that you've got something to offer - rather than just expecting them to think you're the most awesome thing on this planet.

I've had more conversations with gorgeous women than I can count - mainly because I struck up a normal conversation, with no agenda other than something to pass the time while waiting in line, or getting the oil changed, or whatever. Some want to have meaningless conversations, some don't.

How you look really doesn't have much to do with anything. If you're reasonably well groomed, smell ok, and don't say anything too retarded - you're pretty much set as long as your attitude is good. Having decent conversation skills helps a lot too.

Case in point, I'm 36 years old, going back to school. I was waiting for a class to start yesterday, and the nerdiest, and I mean NERDIEST guy is standing outside my classroom. I grew out of my nerd phase after graduating high school - so I know of what I speak. This guy has an awful haircut, nerdy glasses, is wearing a beige members-only type jacket and beige pants. I'm about 40 feet away sitting in a chair just watching. This nerdy guy starts a conversation with about four girls outside the room and keeps engaging them for about thirty minutes. I was pretty impressed. Two of the girls were definitely attractive - and they were talking to him to - without ever having known him.

It took me a long time to realize that the "attractive" people are people just like anyone else. Some are assholes, some are not. Upper echelon attractive people won't have anything to do with you or me because we truly don't have anything to offer them. Most unsurprisingly, those are not my top picks because they don't have anything to offer me either.

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Re: harsh.
[info]winterene
2009-08-25 04:12 pm UTC (link)
To clarify, I am referring exclusively to the way attractive women disregard me for my looks, nothing else. More specifically, in these situations, I have not spoken to them, and they know absolutely nothing about me except for how I look and minor facts like I own a backpack, a computer, an iPod, I read, etc. Only things they can glean from the surface.

To answer your first question--yes, I am expecting that if I were actually good-looking, some of these women would come up to me and say hello. And that just doesn't happen.

Regarding that nerdy guy, what I would ask is--how many other groups of women did he try to talk to before he encountered the group who was receptive to his wit?

I have no doubt that if I approached every attractive woman I saw, some of them would talk to me, and I would probably score some dates.

But that's not what my post was about. It was about the fact that *attractive women do not approach me*, and that I'm sure the reason has to be my looks, simply because they do not know anything else about me. Only my looks are evident on the surface. Nothing else.

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Re: harsh.
[info]devils_tool
2009-08-25 04:26 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm - okay, with that being clarified -

Since this seems to be a pretty surface level discussion, almost just a theoretical discussion - I won't go deeper - but I wouldn't consider it misogyny.

I'm not incredibly good looking, but I may have been approached two times in my entire 36 years on this planet. Neither of them was my ex-wife. It's incredibly rare. Unless there's some secret society that I don't know about, 99.1% of the time, the guy makes the first move - even if they're "attractive".

Here's the thing about nerdy guy - he had no wit. Period. Nerd. Period. He wasn't funny, or attractive, but he managed to maintain a conversation. That's why I was so surprised. I have to use humor to keep girls entertained - apparently he didn't.

Bottom line is that girls do not generally pursue - they are the "pursued".

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Re: harsh.
[info]winterene
2009-08-25 04:33 pm UTC (link)
I think what you are saying is pretty much a truism, perhaps across cultures.

However, I think, perhaps erroneously, that for the truly good-looking guys out there, attractive women make exceptions and, if not exactly pursuing them, make their interest known, even if it's as subtle as saying hello, or even just smiling.

I'm in your camp--I can count on one hand the number of attractive women who have ever approached me in my life.

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Re: harsh.
[info]devils_tool
2009-08-25 04:41 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. We're on the same page. :-)

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Re: harsh.
[info]tolarjev
2009-08-25 04:30 pm UTC (link)
You don't look approachable. It has nothing to do with your degree of attractiveness. You've got a scornful expression that says, "everyone's a moron" on your face, & you're usually buried in your laptop blogging about the idiots that ask you what you're doing, or about the guy you just played who you hated on sight b/c he reminded you of the good looking guys in high school who got all the girls.

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Re: harsh.
[info]winterene
2009-08-25 04:37 pm UTC (link)
I can't speak to my expression at all, but as for the laptop and the blogging, that's completely irrelevant to this discussion.

I'm referring to the moments when I'm having breakfast at a hostel, as I was for several months in Europe, or standing at a bus or train station, or waiting in line at Starbucks, or just sitting and reading a book or a newspaper, all perfectly fine opportunities for a woman to say hello.

Nothing you know about my blogging or personality have anything to do with this discussion, because none of that is evident to a woman seeing me out in public.

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Re: harsh.
[info]tolarjev
2009-08-25 04:51 pm UTC (link)
I can speak about your expression, & it's not friendly.

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Re: harsh.
[info]winterene
2009-08-25 04:54 pm UTC (link)
If that's true, then I have no hope. I don't think there's anything I can do about my expression.

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Re: harsh.
[info]jigsawn
2009-08-25 10:02 pm UTC (link)
if we argue for our limitations we get to keep them.

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Re: harsh.
[info]winterene
2009-08-25 10:13 pm UTC (link)
I can either spend my energy thinking about important things, like the state of the world or how to accomplish my goals, or I can focus on trying to change my facial expression, if I can even figure out how (I have no idea).

I've heard it reported several times that women are attracted to deep voices, but I have never been able to keep the concentration necessary to maintain a deep voice. As soon as I have to focus on something else, my voice reverts to normal.

Sure, other people, like actors can change their voices and mannerisms, but I'm not an actor.

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[info]cesarsalad
2009-08-25 04:36 pm UTC (link)
i'm a nerd, i'm the one that needs to start conversations with girls

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[info]axolotl8
2009-08-25 05:22 pm UTC (link)
"So technically, I could take time away from things that genuinely improve my mind, my knowledge of the world, my personal development and use that time to maintain an appearance that might put me on radar screens of attractive women, even though doing so would probably leave me feeling like I was not doing anything worthwhile."

Didn't you just answer your own question? You acknowledged that you could get on the radar screens of attractive women if you tried harder and spent more time on it (not that I'm suggesting teeth whitening or anything). Maybe that's not what's most important to you right now, especially if you're positive that the things you do right now will more genuinely improve your mind and personal development. Although then I would wonder how you're so positive that everything you do currently is best for your personal development and knowledge of the world. I know that I don't even have a remote idea of what will best improve my personal development, regarding my own life.

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[info]winterene
2009-08-25 05:53 pm UTC (link)
I don't think I said that "everythng I do is best...".

But I think I did imply that things like reading, traveling, studying Scrabble, listening to the news, are generally going to be better for my personal development than spending time choosing a new wardrobe, styling my hair, bulking up my body.

Regardless, the point of my post was not to ask what I could be do be more attractive to women.

The point was that it is an empirical fact that attractive women do not notice me, and is it okay for me to hate them for this.

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[info]tunnicliffe
2009-08-25 06:23 pm UTC (link)
Is it okay, or "justified"? No. Because inevitably, your hatred would affect someone who did not earn it.

Is it understandable? Perhaps. Human instinct is to avoid those things which have proven to hurt us in the past. If you have perceived the majority of those in a particular demographic to be offensive, your first reaction when meeting a member of that demographic would be to assume she would hurt you, too.

Even if your perceptions are unfounded, your reaction would be understandable. Prejudice can sometimes be logical when based on perceived trends, but I don't think it can ever be justifiable.

Anyways, you should maybe consider the possibility suggested in previous comments: that these offenses from attractive women are ill-perceived. How do you know that that attractive woman doesn't go home at night and secretly loathe you because attractive guys in black T-shirts at Starbucks never approach subaverage or even foul-looking girls like her? It's all a matter of perception.

Five. That's the number of times I've used a form of the word "perceive" in this comment. Oops, make that six.

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Perc.....eption
[info]devils_tool
2009-08-25 06:25 pm UTC (link)
"Perception is reality"

My boss told me that once.

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[info]winterene
2009-08-25 08:27 pm UTC (link)
"No. Because inevitably, your hatred would affect someone who did not earn it."

I don't think this is correct. Just because I may hate an attractive woman does not mean I am going to act any differently towards her. If a person approaches me, I am polite unless given a direct reason not to be so. I have good reason to hate cops, yet I am polite when I speak to them.

You use the word prejudice, a term I specifically avoided in my post because hate is not the same as prejudice.

I am not ascribing any qualities to attractive women simply because they are women and attractive. I think prejudice would require that.

I merely hate them, and that is not the same as prejudice.

I assume your final point is just a joke.

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[info]axolotl8
2009-08-25 07:20 pm UTC (link)
"...than spending time choosing a new wardrobe, styling my hair, bulking up my body."

I wasn't suggesting you (or anyone) should spend a lot of time doing these things (but doing a few very minor things can go a long way). I don't even think women would necessarily find those things attractive--because someone who devotes all their time to appearance is probably fairly vain, and I don't think most women find vanity an attractive quality.

I guess I was partly questioning the fact that you seem so sure about certain things. You seem sure that attractive women won't like you unless you completely changed your appearance or something.

I agree that perception is a lot. A year ago, I was convinced in my own mind that an attractive woman could not be interested in a guy who plays in Scrabble tournaments--because it's way too weird and geeky.

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[info]cesarsalad
2009-08-25 08:06 pm UTC (link)
i could never date a girl that couldn't understand why i like going to scrabble tournaments or engineering or building/programming nerdy things. perhaps the set of girls who DO understand this has a small intersection with the set of girls that are considered traditionally attractive, but i don't really care.. i'd wager intelligence is attractive to people like us.

my girlfriend doesn't put on tons of makeup or wear cute dresses or contacts, but she's made a conscious choice to care more about studying to be a doctor and lab research than those types of things. maybe at some point she's wondered why the jock talks to the blonde cheerleader girl instead of her, but doesn't really care... same here.

i guess the point is to find someone compatible with you that you're attracted to. i'm sure winter can do that without having to stop doing what he likes.. no one should change themselves FOR someone else.

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[info]winterene
2009-08-25 08:32 pm UTC (link)
"...no one should change themselves FOR someone else."

I agree with Cesar here. In fact I meant to say the same thing earlier but forgot.

My post is not about changing, but about the reality that exists, and how it makes me feel.

There is not necessarily a solution. We are cursed with being human, a species that evolved with the characteristic that physical beauty is an attractive quality (for solid biological reasons, mind you), and those of us who are unattractive have to accept this. But acceptance doesn't mean that I am going to be free of emotional reactions, and thus after years of being ignored I develop this hatred. I don't know that there's anything that I am inclined to do about it, as long as I don't start feeling overwhelming urges to go out and hurt attractive women.

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[info]axolotl8
2009-08-25 08:48 pm UTC (link)
I was never suggesting you change anything that makes you who you are, and I definitely wasn't suggesting giving up doing things you like. I think changing your perceptions could be a good thing though. I was trying to explain that my perceptions of have changed a lot for the better in the last year or two.

"...no one should change themselves FOR someone else."

I would question that statement though. People change for other people all the time. I think life is about making sacrifices sometimes. How would you expect someone to do anything for you if you're not willing to do anything for them? If you found a girlfriend who completely understands you without changing at all, I think that's ideal. I don't know if that happens to everyone though. Changing is part of what people do.

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[info]winterene
2009-08-25 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Of course people change, and I would not want to be around a person unwilling to change.

But I disagree with changing simply because another person wants you to change, rather than changing because it makes you a better person.

For example, if a person wants you to stop smoking, chances are the reason is because it will make you a healthier person, and that is a good reason to change.

But if person wants you to stop eating meat, that's a different story. There are pros and cons to eating meat, and the issue of meat-eating is complicated. You should not change simply because the other person wants you to, but rather because you've evaluated all the issues and made the decision yourself.

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[info]axolotl8
2009-08-25 09:47 pm UTC (link)
Yes, good point, I agree for the most part.

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[info]cesarsalad
2009-08-25 11:19 pm UTC (link)
Yep, this is what I meant. I know several people who always like everything their girlfriend of the moment likes, and then turn upside down for the next girl, etc. Understandable sacrifices for the sake of the relationship, that I'm definitely ok with..

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[info]sophonax
2009-08-25 09:43 pm UTC (link)
If you're in proximity to an attractive woman, and the feeling that creates in you is something like "are you going to be nice to me, or are you like all of those other shallow stuck-up bitches?", women can sense that a mile off. They don't much care for it.

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[info]jigsawn
2009-08-25 10:03 pm UTC (link)
You are not a bad looking guy. Maybe it's your smell.

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[info]winterene
2009-08-25 10:14 pm UTC (link)
Your response is biased because of that night we spent together, and you were drunk then.

In the light of day I'm definitely subaverage, if not exactly hideous.

Smellwise, I think I'm perfectly normal when I've the opportunity to shower.

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[info]cesarsalad
2009-08-25 11:20 pm UTC (link)
Eh.. I'd argue with subaverage. Just go to the DMV and look at the people in line. Also looks aren't as big of a deal to girls as they are to us...

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[info]winterene
2009-08-26 12:01 am UTC (link)
"Also looks aren't as big of a deal to girls as they are to us..."

Sorry Cesar, but I say bullcrap to that one.

Granted I don't have any studies or statistics to back up my position, but I think that women are generally just as looks-oriented as men are.

Heck, just today, since I made my post and left the house, at least half a dozen attractive women have had an opportunity to smile at me or say hello to me, but not a one has so much as looked my way.

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[info]eurobikermcdog
2009-09-03 10:26 pm UTC (link)
I don't think anything is worthwhile (unless it's posting to blogs)

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